The dispute over events at the Democratic County Convention Saturday can be summed simply: party rules mandate that the overall delegate mix to the state convention ought to be close to the overall delegate mix at the county convention.
The convention delegates were split more or less 75-25 – a 3-1 ratio and a figure no one disputes.
But the final count of delegates from the El Paso Democratic County Convention was 157 for Hillary Clinton and 18 for Barack Obama, a ratio of about 9-1.
Despite the disparity in numbers, “I think when all was said and done in that convention when you look at it, 157 Hillary and 18 Obama was exactly the will of the people there,” said Ken Sutherland, chair of the Nominations Committee and a former county Democratic chairman. [Editor's note: The title of the committee was incorrectly given in an earlier version of this story, which was corrected at 3:30 p.m. MST on April 1, 2008]
Here’s how it worked:
-- The convention attendees chose delegates from among the representatives of the 170-odd precincts in El Paso. Some precincts were combined so the total of delegates from that process was 127.
-- The vote was based on the majority of the precinct representatives, said El Paso County Democratic Chairman Danny Anchondo. The overwhelming majority of precincts had majority support for Clinton, and the split ended up 120 delegates for Clinton and seven for Obama.
Where it got contentious was later in the evening, in Sutherland’s committee.
That’s where the 48 at-large delegates were picked.
According to the state party rules, “Poll results shall be used by the Nominations Committee and by the Convention as a whole as the basis for nominating and for electing At-Large Delegates so as to ensure the fairest possible representation of the Convention participants as a whole within the total delegation, without disturbing the Precinct Caucus election results.” [(10. Election Procedure in Presidential and in Non-Presidential Years, (d)(4)]
John Padalino, an El Paso lawyer who was observing the committee for the Obama campaign, said that the disparity in numbers – about 3-1 for Clinton at the county convention compared to the 9-1 ratio of state delegates that resulted – showed a disregard for the rules.
Padalino, who said he was speaking as an observer and was not authorized to speak for the Obama campaign, said the Nominations Committee should have awarded the bulk of the 48 at-large delegates to Obama, to bring the overall El Paso state delegate number closer to the 3-1 ratio. Instead, he said, the committee split the at-large delegates 37-11 for Clinton.
Further, the final vote awarding the delegates occurred on a reconsideration of the item that may not have followed the committee rules of order, he said. The first vote of the committee, a voice vote, appeared to go in favor of awarding the majority of at-large delegates to Obama in accordance with the state rule, Padalino said.
Before taking the second vote, the chairman, Sutherland, made observers in the packed room, including Obama supporter state Rep. Norma Chavez, turn off their electronic recording devices, Padalino said.
Sutherland said he took the second vote because on the first voice vote in the tense crowd people didn’t seem to understand the issue. On the second vote, using a roll call, the issue “was very clear,” he said.
Sutherland said he asked for the recording devices to be turned off because “In the spirit of the meeting I wanted people to be really candid about the proceedings.”
And on the key issue of picking at-large delegates, Sutherland said he interpreted the rule differently than the Obama supporters.
He pointed to the word “fairest” in the state rule.
“There were many pending precincts that had a large Hillary outcome but were never counted, which would have given them a higher percentage. It was either shenanigans or incompetence in the precincts, how these people were counted,” Sutherland said.
He said that although the state rules regarding delegates have provisions for who is counted as a delegate, because of his concerns regarding the undercounting of Clinton supporters, he and others thought that “If we tipped it more to Obama it wouldn’t have been fair and been a true representation of the votes. … It wouldn’t come under the key word ‘fairest.’”
Chavez said that was a weak interpretation.
“It was abuse of power against the minority,” she said. “We're not trying to unseat any Hillary delegates, to take any of the 75 percent. But do not submit a 90-10 split based on something not in the rules.”
Anchondo said the procedures were all within the rules.
“I know Norma is making a big issue of it but she took advantage of that part when she was chair. When you're in the majority you're in the majority and when in you’re in the minority you're in the minority,” he said. “This is the process the Democratic Party has been using since I’ve been around.”
Complaints about conventions by both campaigns were widespread in Texas. In McAllen, the Rio Grande Guardian reported that Obama supporters received an inordinate number of at-large delegates after the convention there. The Guardian reported that in Webb County, Obama supporters filed a complaint over the voting procedures for delegate alternates.
Chavez said that Obama supporters in El Paso will take the issue up with the state party.
In fact, Ryan Trujillo, a precinct 97 delegate, wrote a letter to the state party Monday.
“Obama had roughly 25 percent composition from the roll. Yet Obama delegate seating barely made 10 percent. Clinton delegation received almost all the precinct seating, BUT received nearly ALL of the At-Large seating. I thought the purpose of the At-Large selection was to mirror the initial head count. Minority reports were brought up twice in order to object to the execution of the rules laid out by the state party and twice were rejected.
“The process did not appear in anyway representative of a democratic and fair process and turned off ALOT of people attending. What incentive do they have to remain engaged if they see their efforts trumped by a majority? Silencing minority voices is the MO of another party, but not the Democratic Party. As I am not a delegate to the state convention, I want to know how I can officially file a complaint in addition to this correspondence.”
Chavez said that the issue could unseat the El Paso delegation.
“I would predict that the (state) committee on credentials will probably not seat the El Paso delegation,” she said. “The rules are in place, like Michigan and Florida, which will not be seated because they didn’t follow the rules. What Ken and Danny have done is put the delegation at risk by not following the rules.”
When asked whether such an action might not split the party in El Paso, she said, “everybody knows I'm a process person and I fight for the rights, voting rights and that's what this issue is about. They have manipulated the process. It sets a very bad precedent not just for El Paso, but the whole state for it to go unchallenged.”














Vanessa Torres-Villescas
April 1, 2008
A native El Pasoan, I now live in Kyle, Texas just outside Austin and was a precinct 223 delegate for Clinton to the Hays County Convention. While I'm concerned for El Paso's place in the state convention, I certainly would support the party's decision to unseat delegates if process was indeed "hijacked" or otherwise circumvented.
In the case of Hays County, the majority of precincts went for Obama and therefore the delegates as well--approx 68%. However, the slate of at-large delegates that was presented by the nominating committee, and approved by the convention, was about 2/3 Clinton delegates. While this might seem disproportionate to the popular vote, the nominating committee took pains to ensure that the county delegation would mirror the make-up of the county population. This meant recommending a greater proportion of female and Hispanic delegates than other groups, hence the 2/3 of at-large delegates that were for Clinton. (This does not appear to have been the process followed in El Paso.)
When the nominating committee brought the slate of at-large delegates to the floor there was some dissent when the ratio of Clinton to Obama was announced. However, after the chairman explained the process, and it was also explained that the overall ratio of Clinton to Obama delegates was not drastically affected, the crowd quieted down and a few moments later called the question. We unanimously approved the at-large slate and completed seating our delegation.
I should mention that among the resolutions we passed, one in particular most accurately represented the overall spirit of the Hays County Democratic Convention and, I hope, the Democratic Party as well. We unanimously approved a resolution from the floor that in November we would support whichever candidate received the party nomination, regardless of who we were currently supporting.
I am sorry that El Paso was not able to work from a similar place of unity and instead appears to have allowed in-fighting and personal interpretations of process to mar the convention. As a Clinton supporter, I would consider losing the El Paso delegation a terrible blow, but perhaps--in the end--it will be an important lesson in the need for compromise at all levels of the political process and will spur El Pasoans to become ever more involved in future election cycles and to actively use, and protect, their political voice.
Al
April 1, 2008
Once again..... the blind leading the blind.
Gary Sapp
April 1, 2008
The calculated disenfranchisement of Obama supporters can't leave a good taste in the mouths of many of the El Paso Clinton supporters. The word for what happened at the County Convention is: "bushwhacked".
When "majority rule" is used to virtually silence the significant minority; it's tyrany, not democracy.
When a large component of El Paso voters are now hoping the entire El Paso delegation gets booted, the "hard ball, take no prisoners" tactics employed by Anchondo, Sutherland and Scherr must be questioned. Clever doesn't always equate with smart.
I suppose the Obama delegates could follow the lead of El Paso and turn the tables at the State convention by excluding Clinton delegates from Denver, but two wrongs won't make it right.
Vixter
April 1, 2008
I was there. I'm an Obamanaut. I was not bushwhacked by the massive number of Hilary delegates. The rules are the rules & sometimes the loser in these events needs to take their hits. ANYONE who believes EP will lose a seat at the big dance in Austin on Jun 7 is on crack. There was no manipulation. There is no EEO for politicians. Norma C's bombastic nature prevents her from thinking in a rational manner. Chill out, grow up, & read the rules. They're subjective, interpretive, and hopefully those who wield the gavel do not abuse their discretion.
Jan Engels
April 1, 2008
Norma Chavez always has been and will always be a dissenter. If it does not go her way she makes it out that the other person is wrong and she is in the right.
What a terrible Representative for El Paso.
Gloria Alvarez
April 1, 2008
I attended the convention and what I found was that the OBAMA SUPPORTERS kept trying to sway us to send one of them as delegates. I am a Hilary Clinton supporter and that was the only reason I agreed to be a delegate at the convention, otherwise I would not have attended. I bet if you ask around most Clinton supporters they would say the same thing. The Obama supporters are just sorry loosers. Look at the program a 2 page ad for Hilary Clinton and a mere stamp sized ad on Norma Chavez's ad. I don't think it would be fair to unseat the El Paso Delegates, if Obama wanted the nomination from El Paso, why didn't even make an appearance in El Paso?!!
Angela Collins
April 1, 2008
I have a question about the at-large delegates myself. I am a Clinton supporter and I was wondering why the at-large delegates were people who have connections in the hierarchy of the Democratic party. Everyone chosen were people who have ties to the people who run the Democratic Party. What is fair in that and were these people chosen before the convention convened?
MARY PAUL
April 1, 2008
THE DEMOCRATIC COUNTY CONVENTION ON SATURDAY WAS CLEAR EVIDENCE THAT THE APPLE DOESN'T FALL TOO FAR FROM THE APPLE TREE. HILARY CLINTON AND HER SUPPORTS WILL DO ANYTHING TO GET THE NOMINATION....CHEAT, LIE, AND STEAL (VOTES). i'VE HAD IT. GOING TO VOTE REPUBLICAN IF SEN CLINTON WINS.
Jermaine Williams
April 1, 2008
Look people its simple. According to rule #11 (b) if a delegate is unable to or fails to select the Alternate to assume Delegate status, the delegation shall select from among the Alternates from the precinct from which the delegates were elected, the particular Alternate of the same political preference......... In short, certail precincts had a shortage of Hillary delegates that was waiting to be fill by an Obama Delegate. Legally, that would of shift the delegate count from 75-25 to 70-30. However, Danny Anchondo decided to break rule #11 by overruling it. Instead of being satisfied with 3 to 1 ratio, he tried to cheat the system to get more Hillary delegates to the state convention. Now El Pasoans are in a situation where they might not be seated in Austin. If that's so, don't blame Obama supporter, blame Anchondo a Hillary supporter. I just hope that this doesn't devides us democrats.
AT
April 1, 2008
Vixter you obviously didn't read the rules and don't recall Obama delegates reading them verbatim at the convention. You can't change the roll call on what you perceived to be Clinton delegates that weren't seated. In essence Mr. Sutherland read the "pending" delegates as 100% for Clinton 0% for Obama...The numbers would have still been a proportional 75-25 split. Nowhere in the rules is this stated or even implied. The official report must be used. No questions...Bottom line, El Paso will be the laughing stock once the temporary roll minutes are read to the state convention and they see the 25-75 split turned into a 10-90 split...This is going to make us look utterly ridiculous, when all the other conventions are going to pretty much mirror the primary vote and the precinct caucus. Those Clinton supporters going to Austin, get ready to have your world rocked...you better pray the Obama majority treats you with half the respect and fairness. I have a feeling they will, but guess what: OBAMA won TEXAS, ha ha ha
Jermaine Williams
April 1, 2008
One of the rule in Article IV Party Convention states the following: if a delegate is unable to or fails to select the alternate to assume delegate status, the delegation shall select from among the alternates from the precinct from which the delegate was elected, the particular alternate of the same political preference, if possible, or of the same presidential preference.....shall take the delegate's place. In short, they're were cetain precincts that were short of Hillary delegates which could possibly be replace by an Obama alternate. However, Anchondo decided to overruled the convention ruled described above. Now, the state committee might not seat the El Paso delegates. If that's so, don't blame the Obama supporters, your focus should be at Anchondo. What's so sad about it is that he didn't have to cheat the system. Hillary (which he supports) had a 3:1 ration.
Barbara Corona
April 1, 2008
Yes, there were violations of the rules at the El Paso County Democratic Convention. Here’s one that didn’t get mentioned:
Who told the Clinton delegates to “split” the vote for delegates and alternatives (i.e., take two separate votes for these positions)? This was a clear violation of the convention rules and guaranteed that both the delegate and the alternative would be Clinton supporters.
It’s no surprise that the vast majority of at-large delegated were awarded to Clinton. The El Paso Democratic Machine overwhelmingly supports Clinton. This was obvious at the convention.
According to Chairman Anchondo, the assignment of 18 delegates (10%) to Obama was “fair.” My arithmetic indicates that 36 at-large delegates should have been added to Obama’s delegate count for a total of 43 delegates (43/174=25%). Anchondo’s statement regarding the absolute power of the majority is at odds with the purpose of the Democratic primaries and caucuses, which is to allocate delegates based on the percentage of the vote for each candidate.
Please understand: I will vote for the Democratic nominee. However, among the people I spoke to at the convention, the only delegates who said they would not vote for “the other candidate” if he or she is the Democratic nominee, were Clinton supporters.
I say to these people (or Obama supporters who feel the same way): Get your head on straight. This country will not survive a continuation of the disastrous Republican policies of the last eight years. The Democratic candidate deserves a chance to fix this horrible mess. I think our candidate, whether it is Obama or Clinton, will make this attempt.
And a word to the Clinton supporters: Richard Mellon Scaife is supporting Clinton’s bid for the Democratic nomination. If you don’t know what THAT means, you aren’t paying attention.
(sign me) Barb
(Barbara Corona
14132 Desert Willow
El Paso, TX 79938
856-6365)
Gabe Acosta
April 1, 2008
Follow the money trail. Who are the big donors?
Josie
April 1, 2008
In response to Danny Anchondo's remarks about Norma Sanchez and the minority/majority issue: Sir just because Ms. Sanchez did something in the past or it is the "traditional" El Paso democratic party way does not mean you should do the same. Stand up and be a better person. If the democratic party jumped off a cliff would you? Come on, using other people's bad behavior as an excuse for your own is just JUVENILE! If you want people to respect you Mr. Anchondo stand up and be different.
ec kostrubala
April 2, 2008
"Who told the Clinton delegates to “split” the vote for delegates and alternatives (i.e., take two separate votes for these positions)?" No evidence (ie, 'in my precint the precinct captain Mr or Mrs blah, called for the vote in blah manner, I know because I am a delegate in that precinct and witnessed it') is provided by the writer that "Clinton delegates" split the vote for delegates and alternates by taking two separate votes for those positions.
My precinct 88, which sent 11 delegates for Hillary Clinton and only 3 delegates for Obama to the county convention, caucused at the convention by asking for nominations for delegates to the State convention. Three people were nominated: two of them for Hillary and one for Obama. A vote was taken. The top vote getter became the delegate to the State convention, the second highest vote getter became the alternate: both of whom were Hillary supporters.
There was training held the week prior to the convention which, if delegates attended a training session, delegates were explained that those who go to the State convention are those who get the most votes in one's precinct caucus at the County convention, and the second highest vote getter becomes the alternate. And that is what my precinct did.
El Paso voted overwhelmingly in the primary for Hillary Clinton: 70 percent of the vote. And on the March 4 caucus, the number of Hillary supporters standing for her was 75%.
What I found annoying at the Democratic County Convention in El Paso this past Saturday was a young white man, an Obama supporter, who cursed into the microphone almost every time he spoke into it with his rants against the Democratic Chairman, forcing the mike to be cut off so his cursing didn't boom out to the attendees. I was seated near enough to hear him yell his curses even though they cut off the mike. And another Obama supporter from my precinct, a middle aged Hispanic man, shouted very disrespectfully at the podium, repeatedly, "this isn't Chico's tacos" and "We're not making menudo here" because he disagreed with the outcome of every voice or roll call vote.
I would imagine that the repeateded disrepectfulness, and at time utter rudeness, of some Obama delegates irritated the living heck out of a lot more people than myself.
The at-large delegates, to my understanding, are supposed to be split 75% to25% - which is exactly what happened with them. That the Obama number out of that, added to the Obama number out of the Precinct caucuses at the Convention deciding the delegates from each precinct to the State convention, wound up being so few for Obama compared to so many for Hillary, is simply a reflection of the will of the people as evidenced by their vote.
El Paso Tx is Hillary country. Hands down.
Next: "among the people I spoke to at the convention, the only delegates who said they would not vote for the other candidate if he or she is the Democratic nominee, were Clinton supporters. I say to these people (or Obama supporters who feel the same way): Get your head on straight. This country will not survive a continuation of the disastrous Republican policies of the last eight years. The Democratic candidate deserves a chance to fix this horrible mess. I think our candidate, whether it is Obama or Clinton, will make this attempt."
I have also heard from Hillary supporters that if Obama is the nominee, they will not vote for him. Many support Hillary Clinton because they admire her as a woman, a mother, a wife. A lot said they don't trust Obama after learning about where he chooses to worship, seeing his ties with Renko and with Chicago political machine in general, which many consider to still be corrupt.
Some Hillary supporters told me they'd vote for Ralph Nader instead, if Hillary is not on the Democratic ticket. I won't do that. I'll write in Hillary. And if the voting booth does not allow me to do that, I'll hope that former Minnesota governor Jesse Ventura manages to get himself on the ballet. After seeing him on last night's Larry King, I'd prefer him over Obama (and certainly over McCain) IF, and only IF, Hillary Clinton is not on the ballot.
Frankly, if Democrats send Obama to compete against McCain in the general election, the Republican machine will swift boat Obama as surely as they did Kerry in 2004. A vote for Obama is, in reality, a vote for McCain. We can't shoot ourselves in the foot. Hillary is the only Democrat running who can win against McCain in the general election.
Thankfully, the vast majority of El Pasoans know this.
AT
April 2, 2008
ec kostrubala....you, like the Dem leadership are not reading the rules correctly...you are not correct when you state the at-large should be split 75-25...In the rules it clearly states that the At-Large should balance out the caucus vote as much as possible in order to mirror the entire proportion...This was not taking liberty with the rules this was blatantly ignoring the expressed will of the state party. your little training taught you what to do during the caucus, but failed to fully inform you of how the convention is supposed to fairly allocate the delegates. The prior post of the apple not falling to fall from the tree is exactly write. Hillary will bend, manipulate and even ignore rules in order to justify an outcome...I believe Hillary will galvanize Republicans for more than McCain. She only one the popular vote in TX because of the Limbaugh Republicans voting for her. Don't you see the Republicans would love to run against Hillary? The Republicans voting for Obama genuinely want him for president, but a majority of those Republicans now voting for Clinton just want to destroy the party and run against a Clinton...If you want to read about how honest your lady is, check out how she was fired for lying, and unethical behavior. the republicans will tear her to pieces. http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives2/2008/04/020187.php
ec kostrubala
April 2, 2008
The response I expect from an anonymous poster. Clearly, a response that does not know El Pasoans, either, when anonymous AT suggests El Paso's overwhelming support of Hillary Clinton is due to Republicans voting for her. As El Paso is Texas' democratic stronghold with a populace consistently, primarily Democrat and pro Hillary from registered Democratic voters in El Paso county, El Pasoans know El Pasoans genuinely support Hillary and she gets her support in El Paso from registered Democrats, not the very few Republicans who call El Paso home.
Intelligent, strong women who go to the Zeifman source and read for themselves his website - http://www.jzeifman.com/ - will recognize a mysogynist at work. We women are all too acquainted with such men and recognize their ilk.
Rudeness from some Obama supporters at the county convention, throwing a mysogynist into the mix today as a reason to support Obama, and making statements about the reason for Hillary's support in El Paso that shows ignorance of El Paso voters, and from anonymous poster to boot - boy howdy, if that's the best some Obama supporters can give me, it ain't working on this political Independent who supports Hillary Clinton.
What would work is to tell us why Obama can beat McCain in the general election. And to tell us why the Republicans would not be able to swiftboat Obama as they did Kerry in 2004, given the choice of where to worship scandal, the Rezko scandal and that he is a politician out of Chicago's corrupt political machine. One wonders just what else the Republicans will dig up on Obama next. www.salon.com/news/feature/2008/02/01/rezko/
I don't want another Republican as President. Hillary is the best Democrat to put up against McCain with a real shot at winning the general election. The teachers unions endorse her, labor unions endorse her, our best military men endorse her and those who want her as President believe she will make an excellent President.
Barbara Corona
April 2, 2008
Kostruba asked what my evidence was regarding the “split” votes for delegates and alternatives. Excuse me: I forgot to mention I was THERE. This happened in my precinct caucus, which was a combination of precinct 155 and three other precincts.
Regarding the rules, AT is correct. In fact, the Convention was supposed to take a written poll to determine the percentage of delegates present who supported each candidate (10.d.2). (Although I am not aware that such a poll was conducted, there is fair agreement that Clinton delegates outnumbered Obama delegates, by 3 to 1 (75% versus 25%.) The result of this poll was supposed to be used as the basis for determining the allocation of at-large delegates so as to “ensure the fairest representation of the Convention participates” (10.d.4). Thus, Kostruba’s contention that Clinton should have been allocated 75% of the at-large delegates, rather than 75% of ALL of the Convention delegates, is clearly incorrect.
Regarding the refusal of some Clinton supporters to vote for Obama if he is the Democratic nominee, Kostruba’s argument is essentially: Don’t vote for Obama if he runs against McCain because Obama will lose. What a wonderful example of circular reasoning. Regarding the “problems” these folks have with Obama (i.e., the statements of his former pastor), did any of these people LISTEN to Obama’s speech on the subject of race? Are you seriously suggesting that Obama is an anti-white racist or that he would appoint anyone to a government position who held such an opinion? Really?
Furthermore, what makes Kostruba think that Clinton can beat McCain? Clinton won’t be “swift-boated?” Try the Bosnia “under-fire” fiasco or the Clintons’ suggestion that McCain would make a better president than Obama. I can see the RNC ads now, to say nothing of those of the 527s.
If Kostruba and his pals insist on withholding their votes in November (if Obama is the candidate), the result will be the election of John McCain and the destruction of the Democratic Party. Clintons’ supporters will be responsible for this and Clinton herself can kiss her position in the party goodbye.
Jermaine Williams
April 2, 2008
Barbra C. is correct. Her statement about democrats voting for McCain because their candidate didn't get the nomination is ludicrous. Come on! Would you rather vote for long bogged-down war in Iraq or some form of plan to get our troops out? Tax breaks for the rich or fair middle class tax breaks? Bush like policies or a new 180 degree direction? If you pick the latter in each question, then DON'T VOTE FOR McCAIN. I would rather hold my nose and vote for Hillary than vote for 4 more years of Bush like policies.
With that metioned, I do believe that Anchondo put El Pasoan delegates at risk of not being seated or possibly voted out of the state delegated reason which AT & I stated above. I was at the convention and i did witness both Hillary & Obama supporter acting immature. Even Anchondo acted a little shaddy.
Yes, both Obama and Hillary has some issues they have to deal with. However, I do believe that Hillary's embellishments is a bigger concern that Obama's former pastor. Check it, if Hillary's becomes the nomination, that will fireup the republican base. Moreover, how many 529 liberal/progressive commericals we will see that would support Hillary? Not many I believe. In contrast, if Obama becomes the nomination, he'll have more than enough 529 liberal/progressive commerials that would responde to any potential negative commercials that would be dish out by republican.
Let me get back to the convention. Obama supporters ( I believe ) were aware that they, or shoud I say we, were out munbered 3:1. However, the math got a little fuzzy when 1) most pending delegates were Obama delegates & 2) which lead to the ratio change from 3:1 to 9:1. I'm telling you, this story here in Texas got legs.
Barbara Corona
April 2, 2008
I thank Jermaine Williams for seconding my opinion. My sincerest apologies to Kostrubaia for misspelling her name I am very near-sighted, have trouble enlarging text on some web sites, and difficulty deciphering names that contain unusual vowel strings (e.g., aia). I also apologize for assuming that Kostrubaia is a male. Most women provide their first names when they post on web sites becuse they want to let people know they are women. I still have no idea if Kostrubaia is this woman’s last name or simply a sreen name.
I don’t know for sure (but I strongly suspect) that Kostrubaia was born long before the time when I became a financial supporter of (and marcher for) women’s rights. I would LOVE to vote for a viable woman candidate for president. I just don’t think that Hillary Clinton is that candidate. And, although I have a reasonable lack of faith in polls, the most recent Gallup polls suggest that she is not that candidate.
Furthermore, I question the attitude of Clinton supporters who will not vote for Obama under any circumstances. (I don’t think that even Hillary Clinton would support this position.) I could accuse people who take this attitude of a particularly nasty mind set. However. I won’t make that accusation because my candidate, Barack Obama, discourages that sort of attack on someone who is his fellow Democratic Senator and the possible (although unlikely) nominee of the Democratic party.
I would like to point out the following regarding Obama’s refusal to “disavow” Jeremiah Wright as a member of his extended family, despite the fact that he clearly disagrees with Wright’s statements regarding America: My father was a racist, right-wing Republican. He was still my father. One of my best friends supports Clinton. I still love my friend (although I am certainly NOT equating HER with my father). I have heard African American friends of mine make some pretty extreme statements regarding the relationship between the “American Dream” and their experiences as African Americans. I still love my friends.
Perhaps Kostrubaia will claim, as do some Republicans, that “Some of my BEST FRIENDS are African Americans.” There is nothing to say about such a claim other than that her “friends” are lying to their white friend or that her friends (assuming she has any African American friends) are completely out of touch with the experiences of most African Americans.
Look into your hearts my fellow Democrats. Think about why you cannot possibly support Obama. That’s all I ask. I don’t think that you can honestly conclude that Barack Obama is a racist.
ec kostrubala
April 2, 2008
Corona referring to myself with the pronoun 'he' shows she does not pay attention to what is written. Evidently that same lack of attention is paid to the rules, in addition to that same miscalculation of the math and the nonsensiical speculation on voters' reasons for their presidential choices, rather than substantive persuasive arguments in answer to the questions "to tell us why Obama can beat McCain in the general election. And to tell us why the Republicans would not be able to swiftboat Obama as they did Kerry in 2004, given the choice of where to worship scandal, the Rezko scandal and that he is a politician out of Chicago's corrupt political machine. One wonders just what else the Republicans will dig up on Obama next. www.salon.com/news/feature/2008/02/01/rezko/" is unimpressive.
From the rules on the back of the Convention handout we all got on Saturday, rule number 10. Election Procedure in Presidential and in Non-Presidential Years - Parts a. , b. and c. address what the precincts at the Convention do in nominating and electing delegates from their precinct to go to the State convention and that (part C, 3.) "These nominations shall be forwarded immediately to the Nominations Committee and shall be included in the list of Delegates and Alternates to the State Convention. The Nominations Committee shall select other nominees for At Large Delegates and Alternates to bring the total to the full number authorized for the county or senatorial district."
This is where the 48 At Large Delegates come in. Again in 10. C. 3. is further stated, "...the Convention as a whole shall ratify the election of Delegates and Alternates recommended by the precincts, and shall elect At Large Delegates and Alternates needed to complete the delegation.
"d. At the County or Senatorial District Conventions, precincts shall elect their Delegates in accordance with Party Rules, and At Large Delegates shall be selected by the Convention according to the following procedure:
"1. Either a written poll of Delegates or a roll call poll of the Convention shall be conducted to determine political preferences...The written poll of Delegates may be either by ballot or sign in sheet"
And as Barbara Corona knows, we all signed in according to Party Rules with the necessary information as we entered the Don Haskins Center, and it is those sign in sheets that were used, as clearly stated at the Convention on Saturday. To continue with 10. d. 1.: "...Final establishment of the poll, either by roll call or in writing, shall be the first order of business immediately following election of Permanent Convention Officers and before the Convention conducts any other business.
"2. ...The Chair then shall announce the tabulation results to the convention by number and percentages of votes received by each political or presidential preference." This was done. According to Newspaper tree's article here, "The convention delegates were split more or less 75-25" which is correct. Then part 4 reads:
"4. Poll results shall be used by the Nominations Committee and by the Convention as a whole as the basis for nominating and for electing At Large Delegates so as to ensure the fairest possible representation of the Convention participants as a whole within the total delegation, without disturbing the Precinct Caucus election results. The threshold will be the lowest allowed by the National Committee (which at present is 15%)."
So, without disturbing the Precinct Caucus election results from the County Convention on Saturday, those 48 At Large Delegates are to be split according to the numbers of delegates attending the Convention who signed in supporting Hillary, and the number who signed in supporting Obama. The results were 75% of the delegates attending the Convention signed in for Hillary, and 25% signed in for Obama.
The rules appear to have been followed. If one were to do as Barbara Corona wants, the rules would be broken since to do as Corona wants, one must disturbe the election results of the Precinct caucuses at the Convention on Saturday.
carl fenter
April 4, 2008
I was at the El Paso County convention as a Delegate for Obama and elected as alternate to he state convention. I agree with State Rep. Chaves and Ryan Trujillo the at large delegates should have reflect the 3 to 1 ratio.
This would be a fair representation going to the state convention for El Paso County.
I feel that the rule interoperations were made in order to keep the fair amount of Obama Delegates from seats at the state convention.
rrustxep
April 4, 2008
To the person who accused an Obama supporter of cursing and making the Chico's Tacos and menudo comments: You are DEAD WRONG! That man was a Clinton supporter who was trying to shout down the people who were voicing objections to repeated rules violations. Maybe if you had been paying attention, you would have noticed that the delegation was being unfairly hijacked in favor of your candidate as well.
ec kostrubala
April 4, 2008
To the anonymous rrustexep, I am correct. The person shouting those comments, as I already said, was from my precinct and an Obama supporter and Obama delegate from Precinct 88 to the County Convention. I spoke with him during the Convention; he sat in the row behind me with the rest of my precinct.
Carl Fenter, please refer to the rules listed at the back of your County Convention handout, and to my post above. As you see in 10.d.4., the At Large Delegates are to represent the Convention participants as a whole within the total delegation, without disturbing the Precinct Caucus election results. Those who signed in to the Convention signed in 75% for Hillary and 25% for Obama. The At Large Delegate count reflected that. Party Rules also stipulate - so as not to send a delegation to the State convention that is, for example, all white males - that in selecting the At Large Delegates, they should reflect the ethnic and age makeup of the county as proportionally as possible, with at least one third of those delegates of the opposite sex to the rest.
This is done because, again, the At Large delegates chosen are not to disturb the Precinct caucus election results from that day (when we decided who goes to the State from our precincts.) If by chance most of the delegates chosen during the County Convention's Precinct caucuses that day were, for example, mostly white men or middle aged women, this would not be a fair representation of we who participated in the County convention that day. So, in addition to proportioning the At Large delegates according to the poll/sign in sheet of the day (how many for Hillary, how many for Obama), when choosing the delegates the nominating committee is also supposed to have the fairest representation of we at the Convention by ensuring at least 1/3rd are women, 1/3 are men (9. Balancing Delegates, part b).
In my precinct, we selected as our State delegate an elder non-Hispanic man whose age reflects the age of most of the Democratic voters in our precinct, and our alternate is a middle aged Hispanic woman. Thus, we followed the rule regarding balancing delegates. But of course, this was not the case in all Precinct caucuses that day. But the At Large delegate rule regarding fairness of representation, both in reflecting the presidential preference listed on the sign in sheets the day of the County Convention, as well as reflecting the proportion of women, young people and minorities present, was accomplished.
Jermaine Williams
April 4, 2008
Like I stated before, this story is growing some legs.
http://www.burntorangereport.com
(El Paso County Democratic Chair Jeopardizes Entire Delegation)
Ken G
April 5, 2008
Sounds like the 'fix' was in for Hillary.
Sylvia Binder
April 6, 2008
I was an Obama delegate and the process of the El Paso conventions was disgusting and shameful. The at-large delegates was not the only rule that was broken. The Sutherland also changed the rules for the movement of alternates into delegate positions just prior to the caucusing began. He altered the rule that allowed alternates from the opposite side to take delegate postions if there wasn't an alternate to fill the spot from that side. I knew there had to had been a problem within the Hillary support side during credentialing for this change to have occurred. My hope is that El Paso is not seated. Integrity is everything. Just because its politics does not give anyone the right to ignore the rules.
rrustxep
April 9, 2008
ec, why don't you present the entire portion of Rule 10 that concerns the allocation of the at-large delegation, instead of just the portion that seems to suit your purpose; that being the disenfranchisement of 15% of the El Paso delegation, which should have been awarded to Obama to accurately reflect the 75-25 sign-in. You and the party "leadership" know exactly what you did, and if the entire delegation is disqualified in Austin, I sincerely hope all those delegates who will have wasted their valuable time and hard-earned money to attend and vote at the state convention will realize it, too.
ec kostrubala
April 14, 2008
rrustxep lies a second time. The response one expects from an anonymous poster who, in essence, comes to this forum with a bag over his or her head. If anonymous has a valid point (which he/she does not), then anonymous would quote the portion of rule 10 he/she thinks is left out to the detriment of Obama, and explain how that portion applies. But of course, anonymous does not do this as the accusation is baseless in the first place.
rrustxep
April 17, 2008
ec,
enough of the ranting over anonymous postings. I just don't want people like you to cause any trouble for me or anyone I know based on my comments.
As for your request for the portion of Rule 10 that supports my argument, here it is:
Democratic party rule [(10. Election Procedure in Presidential and in Non-Presidential Years, (d)(4)] reads "Poll results shall be used by the Nominations Committee and by the Convention as a whole as the basis for nominating and for electing At-Large Delegates so as to ensure the fairest possible representation of the Convention participants as a whole within the total delegation, without disturbing the Precinct Caucus election results."
The fairest representation of the convention would have been a 75-25 split for Clinton, which means that a majority of the at-large delegates should have been awarded to Obama, so as not to disturb the precinct caucus election results. Instead, a 90-10 split was awarded to Clinton. Read the rule and do the math.
This is the last post I will make on this topic. If you can't do simple math or understand plain English, that will remain your problem, not mine.
rrustxep
April 17, 2008
ec,
I must apologize. I have to post one more time. The portion of the rule that I accused you of omitting was, in fact, included in your previous posting.
However, it is obvious that neither you nor the Democractic party leadership in El Paso understood what it meant, or you have chosen to ignore it. 75-25 split at sign-in means that there should be a 75-25 split of the state delegation. What part of that is so difficult to understand?
Seriously, it makes us look stupid in the eyes of the rest of the state. And they already don't have very high regard for us as it is. People in El Paso complain that we are the "stepchild" of the state of Texas and, frankly, it's situations like these that cause us to be relegated to that role. It's amazing that the rest of the county conventions in the state got it right and were able to do the necessary and correct math.
Think about it, at your precinct convention/caucus, the delegates to the county convention were decided by a percentage split of the people who attended the caucus, right? I'll use my precinct as an example. 52 people attended the caucus, 39 for Clinton, and 13 for Obama. This worked out to exactly a 75-25 split. My precinct had 12 delegate spots to the county convention; therefore, three-fourths, or 9 delegates, were awarded to Clinton; one-fourth, or 3 delegates were awarded to Obama. Would it have been fair for 11 delegates to be awarded to Clinton, and one to Obama, based on those percentages? No, it wouldn't have. The same rule applies to the county delegates going to the state convention. If the split is 75-25, then the percentage of delegates going to the state convention should also be 75-25, not 90-10.
ec kostrubala
May 8, 2008
Anonymous rrustxep states: "I must apologize...The portion of the rule that I accused you of omitting was, in fact, included in your previous posting."
Indeed.
Nor is the choosing of At Large delegates as rrustxep thinks it should be. Rule 10. C. d. states, "... At Large Delegates shall be selected by the Convention according to the following procedure:
"1. Either a written poll of Delegates or a roll call poll of the Convention shall be conducted to determine political preferences...."
This was done via the sign in sheets. The result was 75% of the delegates who signed in at the County Convention were for Hillary, and only 25% were for Obama.
"2. ...The Chair then shall announce the tabulation results to the convention by number and percentages of votes received by each political or presidential preference." This was done.
"3. Any written forms used in conducting such poll, or the announced method of polling...shall include...presidential preferences....." (this is about what info must be on the sign in sheets for the Delegates so they can indicate their presidential preferences.) This was followed.
"4. Poll results (that 75% for Hillary, 25% for Obama County convention delegates) shall be used ... as the basis for nominating and for electing At Large Delegates so as to ensure the fairest possible representation of the Convention participants as a whole (delegates at the convention that day and as previously explained, other rules indicate this means the distribution of men, women, ethnic groups to reflect the convention delegates who signed in) within the total delegation (total delegation means all the delegates who go to State, most of whom are selected the day of the County convention via precinct caucuses on the convention floor, plus the at large delegates), without disturbing the Precinct Caucus election results (those results from the floor caucuses the day of the convention by each Precinct). The threshold will be the lowest allowed by the National Committee (which at present is 15%)."
This was also done. The 48 At Large delegates were split 75% for Hillary and 25% for Obama because that follows the rules for selecting the At Large delegates, as just described. Plus those 48 delegates were distributed between men and women, ethnic and age groups in a manner that reflected the makeup of the convention delegates who participated the day of the County Convention.
That the Obama number out of that, added to the Obama number out of the Precinct caucus results *at the Convention* (when the precincts caused on who would go to the State), wound up being so few for Obama compared to so many for Hillary, is simply a reflection of the will of the people, as evidenced by their vote.
ec kostrubala
rrustxep
May 15, 2008
ec,
I really don't know what part of that rule is so hard to understand. The at-large delegation should be apportioned in such a way that the totality of the delegation that is sent to the state convention reflects the 75-25 sign-in. I'm sure you applied the spirit of that rule in selecting your precinct delegates, so why is it so hard to imagine that the same formula should be followed at the county level? I agree that the at-large delegation was apportioned using the 75-25 split, and that the floor delegation was left as is, but that's not the way the rules work. The rule states that the at-large delegation should be used, basically, to balance the delegation to reflect the sign-in. County after county in Texas painstakingly took measures to insure accurate representation, but not El Paso. Even the people on burntorange who originally defended your position admitted that they misunderstood the original complaint. They could not imagine that El Paso could have so blatantly ignored the rules when other counties took extraordinary measures to make sure their delegations understood and followed them. And they ultimately agreed with my position, as have all of the people I have contacted throughout the state (many of them Clinton supporters who are appalled at El Paso's disregard of the rules). Not that it really matters much at this point. El Paso's three national delegates will make no difference in Denver because the rest of the state got it right; John Edwards got it right; and the superdelegates are getting it right. Pretty soon, Hillary Clinton will bow out of the race and will ask all of you to support Barack; she has already pledged to campaign for him. And come November, the rest of the country will get it right and Barack Obama will take the presidential oath of office on January 20, 2009.
rrustxep
May 30, 2008
ec kostrubala,
I usually hate to say "I told you so" but it is so appropriate in this case that I just cannot pass up the opportunity. The credentials committee has spoken and, as it turns out, you, Danny Anchondo, Ken Sutherland, and all the rest of the supposed "democratic" Democrats in charge of the party in El Paso were wrong. Barack Obama was, in fact, cheated out of 26 delegates from the El Paso convention and now a fair representative delegation from our city will be seated at the state convention. Keep in mind that if the Obama camp had pushed this, the entire El Paso delegation could have been thrown out, but all they asked for was their fair share of the delegation. Perhaps there's a lesson to be learned from all this by the Clinton campaign - Don't ask for more than you have won.